PC Building and Parts Resources

Discussion in 'Technology' started by Glocky, Oct 24, 2012.

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  1. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    5 Jan 2013 - updated 1st post with my "If I had to buy now rig" - hidden with the Spoiler tag
    Caveats (things you may want to change as you may not agree with):
    -larger SSD for OS and most/all games/progs.
    -2nd HDD for internal backup (SSD + primary HDD + extra room for defrag)
    -2133 RAM instead of 1600... not a big premium over other low profile ram, price will likely drop before I buy (summer 2013) and unlikely to change with the advent of DDR4 in 2014 or so, 16GB for similar reasons
    -GTX670 - not a fan of sli/xfire, and top minus one gpus generally have more bang for the buck than the top card
    #21
  2. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    Small update in my "if I had to buy now rig" - MSI 670 instead of ASUS 670 for better overclocking / temps
    Added URL for http://www.logicalincrements.com/ as they have a page as well as the image for the Falcon Guide now
    #22
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  3. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    #23
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  4. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    #24
  5. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    * minor update - updated my planned rig with actual Haswell parts / GTX 780 / Z87 mobo
    #25
  6. Xilorator

    Xilorator Blackpulse Admin

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    #26
  7. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    Once the MSI 780 is fully tested, I will figure it out. It's anticipated to have Twin Frozr V and to be much colder than stock as well. So for sure it is between EVGA and MSI, but if MSI is more voltage unlocked as they have been in the past, I will lean that way assuming similar cooling at similar volts.
    #27
  8. Smurf Eater

    Smurf Eater Donator Supreme!

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    So am I guessing that the configuration mentioned in the first post is the recommendation for a frugal super gaming rig? If so, I just have one question, I've heard in the past that 64 bit operating systems aren't very friendly and/or compatible with most games out there and gaming in general. Is this something that has changed in the past 2 years or so and has become considerably more stable?
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  9. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    The rig isn't a recommendation per se, it's what I am personally considering and I update it from time to time. It's not frugal at best it is bang-for-the-buck gaming plus video editing +1 or +2 :)

    On to 64 Bit OS for gaming. I have been running 64 Bit Vista for gaming for 5 years without issue (except when I push overclocks, but that is my fault).
    Considering most gaming builds are 8 gigs of RAM these days, and you need a 64 BIT OS (for Windows anyway, I know nothing of Linux or comparable) to run more than 3.5 gigs of RAM that a 32 bit OS would limit you to.

    The main "problems" people had going to Vista or Windows 7 (which I maintain is Vista SP3) is that they used XP or other drivers as they installed their drivers from disc. Microsoft did a lousy job of working with the peripheral companies to get the driver requirements done well and didn't educate the consumers on the differences. Trying an XP driver on your 64 bit system to get that flight joystick or printer working would BSOD your ass in many cases.

    A frugal gaming build would still have a 64 bit OS and 8 gigs of RAM, but would look more like the "Excellent" tier from Logical Increments, whereas my build is close to the "Extremist" except I have a preference for single gpu instead of SLI/crossfire" and I am considering AIO liquid cooling (different case and mobo choice too)
    #29
  10. copper

    copper TD Admin

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    I just built a Haswell machine. Motherfucker is hot. I got a Phanteks heatsink/fan that you could easily kill someone with, but I wish I'd gone with liquid cooling, even at stock clock.
    #30
  11. Hinouchi

    Hinouchi TD Admin

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    That's Haswell for you, same mistake they did to Ivy :P
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  12. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    Smaller infrastructure = more heat

    People have delidded their Ivy and Haswell processors for improved heat transfer (i.e. lower operating temperatures), but the main difference has come from decreasing the space between the IHS and the chip than replacing the TIM.

    copper Check your volts. There's a lot of variance in the chips, many can undervolt at stock speeds.
    #32
  13. Hinouchi

    Hinouchi TD Admin

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    Thermal performance and heat issues[edit]

    Ivy Bridge's temperatures are reportedly 10°C higher compared to Sandy Bridge when overclocked, even at default voltage setting.[26] Impress PC Watch (Japanese) performed experiments that confirmed earlier speculations that this is because Intel used a poor quality (and perhaps lower cost) thermal interface material (thermal paste, or "TIM") between the chip and the heat spreader, instead of the fluxless solder of previous generations.[27][28][29] The mobile Ivy Bridge processors are not affected by this issue because they do not use a heat spreader between the chip and cooling system.

    That's issue with Haswell and Ivy.
    #33
  14. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    Pretty much the same thing. If you de-lid and change the TIM but keep the same spacing you will have a slight temperature drop. If you decrease or eliminate the space, you have better to very good temperature drops. If you use the wrong TIM, you'll have to clean and replace it to keep the improved temperatures.
    #34
  15. copper

    copper TD Admin

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    #35
  16. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    copper Don't use Prime95 for Haswell, I don't think it has been updated properly (yet?) and it causes most systems to pull extra volts (and extra heat). The current recommendation is Aida64. Also make sure when you're stress testing, that your volts are set manually to prevent programs like Prime95 from pulling extra volts. Auto, adaptive, offset or any similar non-manual setting will let Haswell pull extra volts for the new instruction sets.

    It's not the TIM, it's the space. This member "Idontcare" from AnandTech forums is the only person I have seen test the spacing and the pastes. Unfortunately his Photobucket bandwidth has run out already for July so you cannot see his graphs. The short version is as follows:
    "the benefits of delidding are entirely due to the resultant reduction in gap height between the CPU silicon die and the underside of the IHS." He's even shown on Ivy Bridge that the Intel TIM beats TIMs like NT-H1. If your IVB or HW happen to have a smaller gap from the IHS to the chip, you will have better temps.

    Like I previously said, the smaller the infrastructure the more heat. As the transistors shrink, the power draw doesn't keep pace. i.e. half the size doesn't mean half the power nor half the heat. So more transistors packed into about the same space, add IVRM and IGPU without the transistors' power draw matching their size reduction, that's more heat.

    I know people go all crazy with ZOMG IVB and HW can't overclock like my SB 2600K, but because of improved IPC, they don't need to. Depending on who is doing the testing, HW is 9% faster than SB on single threads and 13% faster on multi-threaded tasks at the same speeds (obviously smaller improvements compared to IB). How many 2600K can hit 5Ghz? Not many. How many 4770K can hit 4.5Ghz? Most with comparable cooling... and that's equivalent for multi-threaded and they will do it with less volts.

    The "dog" 4770K chips can do 4.3Ghz which is about 4.7GHz to 4.8GHz for a 2600K/2700K or 4.6 to 4.7GHz for a 3770K.
    Awesome 4770K chips will hit 4.8GHz, the average is about 4.6GHz on 1.25 volts which would be a 2600K at 5.2GHz on at least 1.45 to 1.52 volts.

    *EDIT Feb 2014 * - My experience is 4.5GHZ core / 4.4GHZ cache on 1.255 volts with 2400MHZ speed ram
    Probably could get more core with more volts and less cache, perhaps less RAM speed, but this gives me a well rounded machine. Idle 30 C, Gaming 55 C, Stress testing 80-90 C

    TL;DR - don't get Haswell if you have IVB or SB, you won't notice the difference.

    I on the other hand, currently have a Q9550... I'll notice the difference :) To match the i5-4670K at 4.6GHz (I don't have HT currently) I would likely have to overclock to 6.9GHz! :eek:
    #36
  17. copper

    copper TD Admin

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    Any idea how he's measuring the pressure for the reduced gap? Just regluing it and clamping it down into the socket?
    #37
  18. Fork Included

    Fork Included TD Admin

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    #38
  19. Glocky

    Glocky Drinking your tears

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    #39
  20. Fork Included

    Fork Included TD Admin

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    #40
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