I've lost all hope ;-;

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
So I decided to do what little I could to stop the absurd inflation of keys by voting and commenting at backpack.tf

I downvoted every comment that encouraged the rise in price and I called out the integrity of the person who made the suggestion. He has 111 keys, yet he apparently doesn't sell them for metal. He claims raising the price is only hurting him because he has only 50 refined.
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I called him out and basically asked him, "Then why the hell are you trying to raise the price?"
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No response from him, but I did get a slap in the face when the suggestion was approved about an hour later.

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I can't believe how corrupt this is. ;-;
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
I can't believe how corrupt this is. ;-;

It's not corrupt, there are reasons behind actions taken. What it does prove, though, is backpack.tf is squat different from what everyone hated about Spreadsheet; ultimately the admins pick the prices, regardless of what the community votes are. If someone put in the effort and time, they could put together a poor report targeting backpack.tf admins, like the Reddit guy did to Spreadsheet. It's certainly plausible. The harm that's being done here isn't the admins' control over prices - such a system has it's own merits - but rather that everything seems to think backpack.tf's prices are the 'true' prices, when it's not fundamentally different from Spreadsheet.

:meh:
Ah, TF2 trading...
 

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
It's not corrupt, there are reasons behind actions taken. What it does prove, though, is backpack.tf is squat different from what everyone hated about Spreadsheet; ultimately the admins pick the prices, regardless of what the community votes are.

Maybe corrupt wasn't the right word, but it's not right that people's votes basically are being ignored. There were at least 100 more votes to deny it, yet it still passed. Corrupt or not, that's not right. What is the point of having a community-run market, when the community's input isn't actually valued? There's no "kinda" about it. The suggestion was refused by the community, but the admin passed it anyway.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I feel like because I don't have 100s of keys or buds to sell at any given moment, my input is invalid. I don't care how influential an Admin is, cutting out the bottom of the food chain is cutting out probably 75% of the community and that is not a fair system.

I realize no system is perfect, but this is just absurd.
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
Maybe corrupt wasn't the right word, but it's not right that people's votes basically are being ignored. There were at least 100 more votes to deny it, yet it still passed. Corrupt or not, that's not right. What is the point of having a community-run market, when the community's input isn't actually valued? There's no "kinda" about it. The suggestion was refused by the community, but the admin passed it anyway.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I feel like because I don't have 100s of keys or buds to sell at any given moment, my input is invalid. I don't care how influential an Admin is, cutting out the bottom of the food chain is cutting out probably 75% of the community and that is not a fair system.

I realize no system is perfect, but this is just absurd.

There's nothing wrong with it. It works just like Spreadsheet, which everyone used and accepted. But it's not a community-run market. People need to stop thinking that's what it is.
 
Maybe corrupt wasn't the right word, but it's not right that people's votes basically are being ignored. There were at least 100 more votes to deny it, yet it still passed. Corrupt or not, that's not right. What is the point of having a community-run market, when the community's input isn't actually valued? There's no "kinda" about it. The suggestion was refused by the community, but the admin passed it anyway.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I feel like because I don't have 100s of keys or buds to sell at any given moment, my input is invalid. I don't care how influential an Admin is, cutting out the bottom of the food chain is cutting out probably 75% of the community and that is not a fair system.

I realize no system is perfect, but this is just absurd.
Maybe they need to create a new word for it, you're right in what you're saying, but as Gatherix mentioned above this post, is that people are using it as if it was a bible for an insane cult.
 

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
There's nothing wrong with it. It works just like Spreadsheet, which everyone used and accepted. But it's not a community-run market. People need to stop thinking that's what it is.

Isn't it though? Not to be rude, but I'm pretty sure Sneeza wasn't hired by Valve to create TF2Outpost, nor were the creators of backpack.tf. If they weren't hired by Valve, then wouldn't they be classed as community-created resources? If they were hired by Valve, then how are they qualified to determine these prices? And why would they ask for community input?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, Gatherix, but I fail to see how there is nothing wrong with the system.

Maybe they need to create a new word for it, you're right in what you're saying, but as Gatherix mentioned above this post, is that people are using it as if it was a bible for an insane cult.

I agree that people shouldn't swear their lives by it, but I still think that there is something to be said for approvals made despite an overwhelming amount of refusal by the community.
 
Isn't it though? Not to be rude, but I'm pretty sure Sneeza wasn't hired by Valve to create TF2Outpost, nor were the creators of backpack.tf. If they weren't hired by Valve, then wouldn't they be classed as community-created resources? If they were hired by Valve, then how are they qualified to determine these prices? And why would they ask for community input?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, Gatherix, but I fail to see how there is nothing wrong with the system.



I agree that people shouldn't swear their lives by it, but I still think that there is something to be said for approvals made despite an overwhelming amount of refusal by the community.
Let's name it, "The People's Backpack.tf TF2 Trading Pricelist!"

Because anything that's named "The People's" is never really the people's, it's all one big meathead's choices, like China or North Korea! :fuckthis:
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
Isn't it though? Not to be rude, but I'm pretty sure Sneeza wasn't hired by Valve to create TF2Outpost, nor were the creators of backpack.tf. If they weren't hired by Valve, then wouldn't they be classed as community-created resources? If they were hired by Valve, then how are they qualified to determine these prices? And why would they ask for community input?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, Gatherix, but I fail to see how there is nothing wrong with the system.

I agree that people shouldn't swear their lives by it, but I still think that there is something to be said for approvals made despite an overwhelming amount of refusal by the community.

I think we're tripping up about our definitions as to what makes something "right" or not. My intention isn't to delve into axiology, but I believe that the administrators of backpack.tf are not doing something wrong. Nowhere is it stated that all price suggestions are determined solely by community votes, and as administrators of the website they have the power and right to control its content. I believe it's the responsibility of the user of such material to properly understand the content they're consuming.

Now, considering that backpack.tf has advertised the implementation of price voting and similar features as what makes the site unique to other price guides, disregarding that is indeed a little dishonest, yes, and players have a right to be frustrated with this; it is deceptive. But I wouldn't characterize it as morally wrong.

Creators of sites like TF2 Outpost, TF2 Warehouse, backpack.tf, Scrap.tf, et cetera are of course not hired by Valve. But I think it's unmistakable that these sites drastically change the TF2 market - price guides define, well, the prices people trade at. Trading sites, most notably TF2 Outpost, define the way players trade. Thus, individual developers (such as Sneeza) have astronomical impact on the TF2 trading market. Much of it is at their control. Generally, as in the real world, what keeps these powers 'in check' is the public mob who chooses where they do business, boycotting places that the majority deem unfit. This is evident after what transpired with Spreadsheet.

And ultimately the entire TF2 market is in control of Valve. Period. It's not a free market. Valve controls the items in play. Valve determines what is allowed and isn't regarding the trading of items. Valve can start up or shut down any influential trading service as they wish. And, as you have agreed to by owning a Steam account, Valve owns all your virtual goodies. Valve controls the market with crates, glitched items, rules, and various services like the Steam Market. Just like any market it requires a consumer, but that does not then lead to the conclusion that the market is controlled by the consumer. Sure, everyone could stop trading, but at well over 2 million premium TF2 players that's not happening anytime soon.

The 'community' may be the gas behind the trading market, but we're not the engine. What determines if a site like backpack.tf is a valid and trusted site is whether the majority of the player-base consumes its content (or if Valve takes out its ban hammer and does something unexpected, which is almost always expected). For whatever reason, be it stupidity, intelligence, difference of opinion, or lack of consideration/caring, all of which players are entitled to, backpack.tf is the go-to place for prices. I agree, some of their methods and actions are deceptive. But that means squat unless the majority do something about it, for or against it.

No need to worry about being disrespectful, it's just a debate.;) If anything I have to worry about being disrespectful for making you read all of that.
 

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
But that's exactly what it is! :s

I'm just saying that it doesn't seem right that someone, who apparently doesn't even sell his 100s of keys for metal, can make a suggestion that gets more downvotes than upvotes, which would suggest that the community is against it, to raise the cost?

I'd love to hear how that makes sense. Please enlighten me. I'm obviously missing something.

-.-

EDIT:
My use of the word "right" is mostly a substitute for the word "fair" or "sensible." I'm just baffled why someone follows a site where such blatant objections are made and, in this case, ignored. :s
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
But that's exactly what it is! :s

I'm just saying that it doesn't seem right that someone, who apparently doesn't even sell his 100s of keys for metal, can make a suggestion that gets more downvotes than upvotes, which would suggest that the community is against it, to raise the cost?

I'd love to hear how that makes sense. Please enlighten me. I'm obviously missing something.

-.-

EDIT:
My use of the word "right" is mostly a substitute for the word "fair" or "sensible." I'm just baffled why someone follows a site where such blatant objections are made and, in this case, ignored. :s


It's fair to some people and it's not fair to others. To answer why, just go to the post, see what the admin's reasons are, and decide for yourself if you think they're reasonable or not.

As I said, they're not obligated to give a shit about what the votes are. It's deceptive and dishonest of them not to, but I wouldn't say it's unfair.
 

14bux

Senior TF2 Admin
I wouldn't say this key problem has anything to do with backpack.tf, but rather the people selling it for that. Many people in TF2 go off just what they know, or what they feel they should sell it for. The system backpack.tf uses is based not only on votes, but what is ACTUALLY proven in prices. The key/bud values are occuring due to either a) an individual consolidating or b) People not selling them at the "set" prices. The way that sites such as backpack handle this is legitimate, working off the actual prices and stats.
 

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
Funnily enough, I did, but all he put was a link to a trade on outpost where a person was selling keys for 5 ref each. In addition to that, there was a post on there that MOCKED the seller for selling so high.

I understand the Admins have the final say in the voting, and I'm not about to go challenge them on running their site, but I think it's a waste of both the Admins and the commenters' time to basically blow off the votes. Again, I realize that the Admins ultimately make the decision, but suggestions made to raise the price by people, who apparently don't care, make it harder on the rest of us to be able to get what we want. I'm happy for those people that have backpacks full of Unusuals and Buds, but as someone who DOESN'T have that sort of backpack, I would say that allowing just anyone to make a suggestion when they have no vested interest is nothing less than absurd and IN MY OPINION, unfair. Yeah, I know, life isn't fair. I've heard that all my life, but that doesn't make this any less irritating :L
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
^ A lot of people make price suggestions solely to get approved suggestions. I would argue that's why most do it.
 

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
Where the user has no intention of selling the suggested items.

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT!!! ;-;

He said he wasn't selling his keys for metal, but the suggestion was still approved! ;-; He's essentially a troll looking to screw over the rest of us. ;-;

:feelscry:
 

Fiend

Senior TF2 Admin
I understand the Admins have the final say in the voting, and I'm not about to go challenge them on running their site, but I think it's a waste of both the Admins and the commenters' time to basically blow off the votes.

I personally DID challenge the admins.

I commented on how silly one of the price increases were on backpack.tf and received a warning from an admin from the site. I immediately added the admin on Steam and demanded an explanation for the warning AND the suggestion being passed when there were 100+ pieces of proof against the suggestion provided.

It was a very long... 2 hour conversation. Ultimately, the admin admitted that the process was flawed, that they allow people with Caution tags to make price suggestions and influence the market, and that other admins have "vested interests" and "play favorites" with some of their friends. Of course, i wasn't provided the names of the admins/friends, but that's not the point. Those relationships become obvious with very little research.

I also received an apology for the warning. They are aware that their process isn't "fair." They just don't care.
 

Cmp™

Retired Scrub
Fiend, that's exactly what I'm saying. I guess I'm naive for thinking that everything should be right, because it makes me angry to know that an Admin admittedly plays favorites and basically pulls the puppet strings of the market and any movement to correct that is shut down. That isn't right. It may be legal, but it's not right.

I'll stop commenting as much now, because more than likely, I'll end up pissing myself off. I just think that something should be done about it. Fiend, I applaud you for challenging them.

I wish I had the influence to make them care, but I guess just refusing to buy for their absurd prices will have to do =(

On another note, I appreciate all of you putting up with my meaningless rants :3 <3
 
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