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Economy imploding
- Thread starter $alvador
- Start date
I never suggested that it could, what I said was that reliance on outdated thinking and a catchphrases from 30 years ago is poor energy policy - you brought up China, I merely pointed out that their reliance on outdated information (and little to no regulation of pollution) lead to a sorry state of affairs in regards to air quality which they are now addressing using alternative energy, and that their efforts (and those of others) will result in more efficient pv panels (see perovskite for a promising new tech)
I am responding to your assertions that pursuing alternative energy sources is not economically viable or reliable sources - both of which are demonstrably false - given that countries all around the world are creating reliable, affordable energy from alternative sources, including Canada.....if I has a bias it's for facts and observable reality.
It's obvious that on this topic, like it seems the topic of renewable energy - you are prone to unfounded assumptions. I do not make my living from anything even remotely related to energy production or distribution - renewable or otherwise. I have however participated projects designed to promote adoption/conversion to a sustainable energy sources - for free I might add. I teach IT for a living.
Be so kind to quote the point where I offered any analysis of their motivation, other that is than profit. Again you assume and project negativity towards the opposing position - frankly I don't give a fuck why they do it - what matters it that they are, and every new panel installed and every "media event" designed to promote it pushes the industry forward to better and more affordable options - it's the result I care about not the motivation. And of course they are taking advantage of it - they are for-profit companies, not sure why you would even imagine they would not try to profit from this as well....
Here's an astounding news flash - a government policy that isn't living up to it's hype - who wouldda guessed? Of course somebody has to make the equipment, and as you pointed out someone has to repair and maintain it - guess somebody has to do those jobs. And if they can take any load off the existing conventional power grid that just might be good for the environment...
ᴰᴳᴺ Church of KFC
DARKLY Regular
Damn, that's fucking stupid. Screw the government.
@Tick Tock Man you are clearly trolling or something... you still haven't shown any examples of the shit you are spewing. All I get from reading your AIDS is that you think money grows on trees. You should be a politician.
True you didn't suggest that it could become like China... you suggested that it could become worse... as you can still breathe in China.
Implementing current alternative energy sources is not economically viable for the majority of people/businesses... this is fact.
What kind of background do you have in alternative energy technologies? Interested since you are volunteering your services to companies and this is not your field of expertise. I hope you have professional liability insurance.
Your whole argument is that it is economically viable for indivduals & companies to ditch the grid and implement alternative energy sources... yet you mention a "media event" pushes the industry forward to better and more affordable options... so are you saying current options are not really that good or affordable for most people and businesses?
Most of the equipment is made overseas... and I guess you missed my earlier post about about very few permanent jobs being created by these renewable energy projects.
The population is growing... and so will electricity demand. I don't think building PV and Solar farms is the best way to deal with the growing demand. How about this... instead of building costly and unreliable renewable energy projects... we promote energy efficiency in the home/office and design products to use less power? What's really funny is that it takes an incredible amount of energy to build these pv and solar farms... oh the ironing.
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OG buckshot jr
TD Admin
Lol not reading and getting that post count up.
MetalLobster
TD Admin
Woah, not cool. You two disagree? Fine, but leave the personal attacks at the door before we get to #gamergate levels of shit fuckery.
I can't tell if you just lack reading comprehension or try to intentionally miss the point.....since it seems the former is the more likely candidate, I'll try this in as blunt a way as possible:
In response to YOUR inclusion of China's air quality in the discussion - I observed that China had followed the same tired nonsense thinking you are pushing until the air quality got so bad they were forced to consider that being able to breath in the long run is more important than than temporary economic considerations. In short they figured out that excuses are no substitute for air quality.
Be so kind to point where I said, implied, suggested or otherwise indicated in no matter how slight a form that this is/was the case.
I was a NC licensed electrician for 8 years (late 80's early 90's) and worked on dozens of large scale industrial projects during that time - the company performing the upgrades asked me to consult as I have personal connections to the owners and an avid interest in the field. I still keep up with emerging technologies & read extensively on the topic.
I say precisely what I mean. What I said was that for some companies it is economically beneficial to to install and use alternative energy generation systems, and that every company that does this pushes the industry forward by creating demand - and just like every other industry the demand will force the product to evolve into a more efficient and more affordable model. You mentioned the "media event", as if the reasons why a company does something has the slightest bearing on the outcome - Of course MS, Intel and Google make a media issue out of their use of alternative energy - so what? If the result has a positive net benefit for society I couldn't give a fuck less WHY, I merely care that they did - if it tickles Bill Gate's balls to do this then good for him - I still don't care.
Again with the short-term self-centered thinking - but if you are really that twisted that about it, start your own local manufacturing plant for pv panels, bladeless turbines or geothermal exchange units - Nobody is guaranteed a job or easy living - if you want either then you got to be willing to do more than just complain that somebody else is putting more effort in then you are..
How about this - stop thinking in the false dichotomy zone - we can pursue alternative energy sources for production AND make more energy efficient devices for consumption - in fact just converting to low voltage lighting systems ultiizing OLEDs would dramatically reduce the energy load and make it feasible for a solar array to power the entire system for a single industrial installation. (been there, done that)
How about this - instead of just assuming the scope and structure of these solar farms is inflexible and therefore costly in both surface area and energy expenditure to build, try approaching the topic from a perspective of "what CAN we do to make this work" instead of "never going to work no way so might as well not even try."
You assume failure, and such assumptions tend to be self-fulfilling - I have however seen the power of determination and creativity make this type of project work -and not just for mega-giants like Google or Intel. The biggest impediment to larger scale implementation is this repetition of defeatist propaganda, which serves only those folks with a vested interest in sticking with a 100 year old grid design.
I understand you just have to shake your head no and sing la-la-la, that's fine - but ignoring the facts doesn't make them go away. Claiming that this approach can't be done only limits your mind, and it hasn't been the slightest impediment to others doing it anyway.
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So because I don't think we should be wasting billions of dollars on PV and Wind farms, and instead invest this money in energy efficiency R&D and promotion... you say this is nonsense thinking and will lead us to having air quality similar to China? You do realize Ontario is closing it's coal plants right? The province is replacing them with nuclear and clean burning natural gas power plants. Of course you know that China is building a coal power plant w/ shitty regulations almost every week, right? .
PLEASE tell me how you expect to supply RELIABLE, guaranteed power to a province/country using renewable energy. Do you know how demand forecasting works? Renewable energy can supplement the grid, but at this current time, cannot replace it.
PLEASE tell me how you expect to supply RELIABLE, guaranteed power to a province/country using renewable energy. Do you know how demand forecasting works? Renewable energy can supplement the grid, but at this current time, cannot replace it.
ᴰᴳᴺ Church of KFC
DARKLY Regular
$alvador
TD Member
:dafuq: how did this thread get so OT? As far as the energy debate goes: we don't get enough sunlight hours to make PV worthwhile and wind power is only great until you remember that moving parts mean eventual maintenance. Even if we totally ignore RoI, the raw energy and materials required to manufacture this "green" equipment has so far left nothing but an energy debt that "green" energy is not going to recover from soon, if at all. This brings us to the elephant in the room in regards to the green energy economy: if people buying green energy products expect a service life of 20-years from them, how would this economy maintain momentum? It's really difficult to keep making money from people when they only need to buy a PV array once to last them twenty years, and it's a fact of life not lost on the sceptical.
Back to the ecomedy: http://business.financialpost.com/2...ts-after-oil-price-collapse-forecasters-warn/
So the writing on the wall seems to be saying we're not fucked because of market factors, we're fucked because of poor planning that makes it harder for our economy to bounce back from such events as oil prices falling.
Back to the ecomedy: http://business.financialpost.com/2...ts-after-oil-price-collapse-forecasters-warn/
So the writing on the wall seems to be saying we're not fucked because of market factors, we're fucked because of poor planning that makes it harder for our economy to bounce back from such events as oil prices falling.
Fork Included
TD Admin
It couldn't be more on topic.
The debate between Tick Tock Cock and Braids "the Faggot Kingstonite" is important as it shows a clear divide between values and opinions on viability and importance of resource management.
The ever hopeful socialist in me is on Tick Tock's side, while the realist is with Braids. We all can dream but problems need to be fixed today.
This can be extrapolated to all aspects of the Canadian economy,
There never seems to be a clear goal for Canada and its place in the world, and those in charge could never agree, rational voices seldom get heard.
OG buckshot jr
TD Admin
Oil prices bottomed out decades ago and Canada handled it. Sure, the economy is different now than it was, however oil prices will bounce back (up $4 alone, today) and the loonie will stabilize (up to .86 today).
My opinion on green energy is like all other tech: if money can be made, green energy will be patented, supported and rammed down our throats. If there isn't much money to be made than it will die the death of the original Toyota EV-1 (YouTube a Tom Hanks interview on the late show for more insight). Nobody gives a fuck about anything but money, period. I hate to be the pessimist [RE: realist], but that's just the way it is.
There is no solution because those at the top don't care for one, and the over-taxed public can't provide capital for one.
My opinion on green energy is like all other tech: if money can be made, green energy will be patented, supported and rammed down our throats. If there isn't much money to be made than it will die the death of the original Toyota EV-1 (YouTube a Tom Hanks interview on the late show for more insight). Nobody gives a fuck about anything but money, period. I hate to be the pessimist [RE: realist], but that's just the way it is.
There is no solution because those at the top don't care for one, and the over-taxed public can't provide capital for one.
amanshotme
TD Member
Oil may be abundant, but the low hanging fruit is about dried up (or so I have read). Eventually it'll require more energy to get oil than it gives out, so I agree that more attention should be paid to alternative energy. When it comes to heating and electricity generation, I have been partial to waste conversion systems (garbage burning or bio-fuel from human waste) or hydrogen-natural gas mixes. Requires less space than wind/solar farms.
But.... Oil makes money now ...so....yay Oil.
But.... Oil makes money now ...so....yay Oil.
So because I don't think we should be wasting billions of dollars on PV and Wind farms, and instead invest this money in energy efficiency R&D and promotion... you say this is nonsense thinking and will lead us to having air quality similar to China? You do realize Ontario is closing it's coal plants right? The province is replacing them with nuclear and clean burning natural gas power plants. Of course you know that China is building a coal power plant w/ shitty regulations almost every week, right? .
PLEASE tell me how you expect to supply RELIABLE, guaranteed power to a province/country using renewable energy. Do you know how demand forecasting works? Renewable energy can supplement the grid, but at this current time, cannot replace it.
Still waiting on tick tock...
Would also love to see these systems he has designed.
TurboTaco
TD Admin
U got it backwards man. Low hanging fruit is no longer and has never been oil well operations. Dutch shell, imp oil, etc spend billions for in land and offshore rigs that provde a couple decades worth of oil at best with diminishing returns year over year.
Fracking is mainstay of oil n energy producers popping up all over europe and north america in the past 5-10yrs. It was expensive, prohibitively so, years back. It is becoming cheaper and more efficient altho issues arise in regards to environmental impact (quakes tremors etc).
Fracking ops cost a tiny fraction of traditional platform rigs and wells. The fracking boom allowed US for the first time to produce the equivalent of the saudi opec nations and then surpassed them last year creating this new oil price war which has seen oil bottom out now around $50/barrel
With regards to alt energy, it works and is great, but requires the full support and cooperation of the government and its people which is why its only working well in places like norway n denmark.
Canada, US, care more bout money making. Powerful lobbyists prevent or slow down progress into alt energy exploration and dec. so in a nut shell, gas n oil and goin nowhere til we suck the rocks bone dry or earth comes to a point if disaster in the next 50 years or less.
$alvador
TD Member
Ughhh.. fine. let's talk PV. I'm looking at a local municipal budget for 2014 that says the town's latest PV project breaks even in just under six years. The MicroFIT contract lasts 20 years, so if the PV panels also last 20 years that works out to twelve years of profit in total. It sounds like a pretty good investment for a basic setup. Now what?
TurboTaco
TD Admin
What microFIT companies dont tel you is the efficiency of pv degrades year over year. The 'best' panels at the time i was working had conservative efficiency ratings of about 18-22%. Plus we dont have control of nature. If your home was in the ideal location with max exposure you still have to factor cloudiness, weather, dirt n muck that dries on the panels reducing efficiency, snow build up etc. plus only 2-3 months of the year mid june to late aug provde best production yields.
A microfit will cost you 25-100k+ depending on the size of your home. You also would need a new roof assuming it wasnt updated prior to the project. Anyway digression.
Could be worthwhile to some, for most not really.
A microfit will cost you 25-100k+ depending on the size of your home. You also would need a new roof assuming it wasnt updated prior to the project. Anyway digression.
Could be worthwhile to some, for most not really.
.44 caliber
TD Admin
As a contractor doing mostly home renovations to reduce the heat/energy loss in the average home, I think the biggest problem to me is people living waaaaaaaay out of their means. Some houses are hopeless imo being anywhere from 2000-3500 sq ft and good luck selling them to anyone in our generation. Total energy vampires.
Side note
My parents just finished building a complete off-grid home in the countryside. Without going into it I'll just say that it was way too expensive to build for the average person (especially if you live in a city). There are a lot of headaches involved with learning how to work the inverter and the back up propane generator to keep the system afloat. Worth it, I think. Most people couldn't be bothered. It was simply their dream home and they saved for a long time to do it. My goal is take what I've learned from them and try to make solar power realistic for home owners in Canada. If nothing else, when it is done right I think it can lessen our dependence on fossil fuels in a good way.
Side note
My parents just finished building a complete off-grid home in the countryside. Without going into it I'll just say that it was way too expensive to build for the average person (especially if you live in a city). There are a lot of headaches involved with learning how to work the inverter and the back up propane generator to keep the system afloat. Worth it, I think. Most people couldn't be bothered. It was simply their dream home and they saved for a long time to do it. My goal is take what I've learned from them and try to make solar power realistic for home owners in Canada. If nothing else, when it is done right I think it can lessen our dependence on fossil fuels in a good way.