Does gun control work?

[swan]

I think as a community based largely on FPS this is a legitimate topic to discuss.
although let's not get too far into that, as i think at least most of us will agree games don't induce violent behaviour.

so...

there's a huge resistance to any form of gun control in the US.

why?

is this resistance legitimate?

what happens if gun control comes into effect?
VS.
what happens if it doesn't?


there are other countries with strong gun control laws that are still able to function without turning into a chapter from 1984. why should or shouldn't we use these countries as an example?
here's a pretty funny 3 part series that also has some good talking points about that:
(edit: just a note, i'm well aware the video is biased but that doesn't mean the views it states are a write-off, as with any issue there are multiple sides to consider... that is if you're reasonable and have critical thinking skills)

 

[Steve]

If you are a Canadian saying the USA needs stronger gun control: Fuck off

If you are a Canadian saying Canada needs stronger gun control:






Daily Show clips in the serious biz section

 

[swan]

satire is a legitimate form of social commentary. also, i didn't directly state any opinion towards gun control in either country, i simply opened the topic up for discussion.
and.. saying a canadian is not allowed to have opinions on america/american policies is ignorant at best, not to mention hypocritical (but that's another topic). our countries are basically bed partners if you haven't noticed, and american politics have a strong impact on what we do in canada.
so... do you have an opinion on the discussion at hand? i'd love to hear it.

 

[Steve]

I would love to hear how our gun laws effect you. What are people buying guns in the US and sending them up to be used to kill mounties?

And you can have all the opinions you want, and I will continue to give less than a fuck about some foreigners view of my country and its law.

 

[Brades]

Steve you live in Minnesota for fucks sakes, you may as well call yourself a Canadian.

 

[Steve]

Except the only thing Minnesota and Canada have in common is that, it snows? iCe lives in NY, liberal capital of the USA, he might as well call himself Canadian.

 

[Wrath]

We don't need Gun Control.

We need a better Education System.

These other countries that you mentioned and as well in the videos, are where they are now because they aren't a bunch of mindless, brainless, heartless slobs like a lot of us are here in the states. We don't need to change our Bill of Rights, or repeal the 2nd Amendment, why? We're WAAY to big for that shit, smaller countries, since it's easier for Inner City Squads, Police, State/Government enforcement to do what they need to do, then there's no need for it.

Let's look at the obvious, we're a country that has the largest police departments in it, and on top of that, a huge, overly sized population, with an equally over-sized government...with so many branches, it's mind boggling. Even our 'main departments' have sub departments, shoot, look at New York, Los Angels, Dallas, Chicago...if you require a Police force, that reaches nearly over half a thousand hands, and even have 'mini' sub departments with fancy ass names like Civil Protection, Inner City Area Squad, 109th Sector Response team, BLAH BLAH BLAH, we wouldn't need such enforcements, or even have that many people, if we didn't have the sheer amount of stupidity here in 'murica.

Kids this next generation, are going to get knocked up at 15 years old, shoot their first sentient being at 17, and will be dead at 20-25, if they're lucky.

Stop fucking with our guns, and FIX the god damn education, or better yet, help the States with their governments to make the cities a better place to live. I've grown to being used to seeing death and destruction, it doesn't scare me anymore. Someone got hit near my home, at a busy intersection, and their body flew. I mean, look what happened not too long ago. http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/201...-highway-that-left-7-year-old-girl-dead.html/ & http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Woma...ete-truck-on-Northwest-Highway-161098025.html

And yet, that's probably only one death, out of 10, that will happen in any given month, or week, and only the media will tape the ones that are really deadly. Out in 183, if anyone knows that highway of Texas, three people were gunned down by rival gangs...over a simple 'cut off'. (I think Highway Patrol, or a nearby city) police shot to death the 4 gang members in the opposing car, because they wouldn't surrender their guns. Try finding that out on Google, it's not reported...only reason I knew was because I asked an officer what happened the following day while we stuffed a fraudster in teh back of his squad car.

A lot of this shit could be prevented if people would do the right thing. Taking away guns, will only hurt what we've been having in place for ages.

(I will probably be droning off in several points on this, tl:dr, we don't need an amendment, we need more control informing these idiots to not shoot themselves over something so stupid. There's always a reason behind the shootings, and usually, it's either A. An accident due to human error, or B. Idiots.)

 

[Brades]

Yes New York is like Canada but with more faggy accents

 

[Xilorator]

OK, so I am a criminal justice administration major (just graduated and probably getting my masters in digital forensics) and I'll give you my opinion.

I do not support gun control.

Firstly, because I understand why we have the second amendment which is to protect ourselves from an overbearing/tyrannical government. You can say all you want that the U.S. would never turn on its own citizens, however the second amendment is there to preserve the freedom that we currently have today. Furthermore, our core culture was founded on guns and individual rights.

Secondly, taking away guns and/or restricting law abiding citizens rights does not reduce crime. Studies show that when guns are taken away, other crimes using different weapons such as knives drastically increase (look at Great Britain or any other country for that matter that has made guns illegal).

Thirdly, criminals do not follow the law; that's why they are criminals.

 

[swan]

We don't need Gun Control.

We need a better Education System.

These other countries that you mentioned and as well in the videos, are where they are now because they aren't a bunch of mindless, brainless, heartless slobs like a lot of us are here in the states. We don't need to change our Bill of Rights, or repeal the 2nd Amendment, why? We're WAAY to big for that shit, smaller countries, since it's easier for Inner City Squads, Police, State/Government enforcement to do what they need to do, then there's no need for it.

Let's look at the obvious, we're a country that has the largest police departments in it, and on top of that, a huge, overly sized population, with an equally over-sized government...with so many branches, it's mind boggling. Even our 'main departments' have sub departments, shoot, look at New York, Los Angels, Dallas, Chicago...if you require a Police force, that reaches nearly over half a thousand hands, and even have 'mini' sub departments with fancy ass names like Civil Protection, Inner City Area Squad, 109th Sector Response team, BLAH BLAH BLAH, we wouldn't need such enforcements, or even have that many people, if we didn't have the sheer amount of stupidity here in 'murica.

Kids this next generation, are going to get knocked up at 15 years old, shoot their first sentient being at 17, and will be dead at 20-25, if they're lucky.

Stop fucking with our guns, and FIX the god damn education, or better yet, help the States with their governments to make the cities a better place to live. I've grown to being used to seeing death and destruction, it doesn't scare me anymore. Someone got hit near my home, at a busy intersection, and their body flew. I mean, look what happened not too long ago. http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/201...-highway-that-left-7-year-old-girl-dead.html/ & http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Woma...ete-truck-on-Northwest-Highway-161098025.html

And yet, that's probably only one death, out of 10, that will happen in any given month, or week, and only the media will tape the ones that are really deadly. Out in 183, if anyone knows that highway of Texas, three people were gunned down by rival gangs...over a simple 'cut off'. (I think Highway Patrol, or a nearby city) police shot to death the 4 gang members in the opposing car, because they wouldn't surrender their guns. Try finding that out on Google, it's not reported...only reason I knew was because I asked an officer what happened the following day while we stuffed a fraudster in teh back of his squad car.

A lot of this shit could be prevented if people would do the right thing. Taking away guns, will only hurt what we've been having in place for ages.

(I will probably be droning off in several points on this, tl:dr, we don't need an amendment, we need more control informing these idiots to not shoot themselves over something so stupid. There's always a reason behind the shootings, and usually, it's either A. An accident due to human error, or B. Idiots.)

thank you, wrath, for having so far the only on-topic response. (edit: xilorator posted while i was typing)
i like where you're headed with this idea, but saying "better education system" is fairly vague. essentially... better how? what do you see as current flaws and what do you think needs to be changed or added into the system to improve it?

your argument kind of suggests there needs to be some kind of "morality class" or "etiquette a.k.a. how not to be a dick in society's ass", but i don't see that going over well.

 

[Xilorator]

I don't think it's solely education. There are many factors as to why this may be occurring.

• Lack of parenting
• Dependency
• Drugs
• Welfare
• Gangs (this is really what you see on the news, most is gang related violence even if the news does not say)
• Economy

The list goes on, it is not simply one factor and I'm sure you would agree with that.

 

[swan]

OK, so I am a criminal justice administration major (just graduated and probably getting my masters in digital forensics) and I'll give you my opinion.

I do not support gun control.

Firstly, because I understand why we have the second amendment which is to protect ourselves from an overbearing/tyrannical government. You can say all you want that the U.S. would never turn on its own citizens, however the second amendment is there to preserve the freedom that we currently have today. Furthermore, our core culture was founded on guns and individual rights.

Secondly, taking away guns and/or restricting law abiding citizens rights does not reduce crime. Studies show that when guns are taken away, other crimes using different weapons such as knives drastically increase (look at Great Britain or any other country for that matter that has made guns illegal).

Thirdly, criminals do not follow the law; that's why they are criminals.

Ok, fair enough. But let me respond to your points for a second here

1 - this is one i can kind of go with. i mean, i don't see the government coming after the citizens with full force because the country would physically lie in ruins afterwards, to the point where the country could collapse economically, and then the government loses more than it gains. but a well armed population could be substantially sufficient force to physically overthrow the government's areas of operation. however, i think that's slightly irrelevant as the government has essentially already enslaved the population through financial means.

2 - this might be true. people would still commit crimes, just with different weapons (ie. knives). but, would you rather have someone come at you with a knife or with a gun? personally i much prefer the knife. you have a better chance at defending yourself and knife wounds are, for the most part, less likely to kill you. i mean a stab to the head is equal to a shot to the head, but i think you'd find a higher rate of survival from knife attack victims.

3 - this argument is terrible. this is equivalent to saying "crack addicts are going to sell and smoke crack even though it's illegal, so we might as well not make any laws about it". it's logically fallacious. of course criminals don't follow laws, that is what makes them criminals by definition, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws in the first place. here's the conundrum: without laws, there are no criminals because there's no laws to break. as soon as we make any laws, we will have criminals because it's pretty much guaranteed that not everyone will follow them all the time. but without them we have anarchy, which is i think is generally frowned upon, not to mention impossible within a society.

 

[Wrath]

Yes New York is like Canada but with more faggy accents

So, if I take one of your government members hostage, and point a gun at him, will your peeps in law enforcement point weapons and give me the count of three before I'm shot to death, or will I get threatened with sticks?

(I ask this because I hear some places, even if you have a gun, the POOOLICE will go after you with batons, shields, tasers, et centra, but not guns, and they are successful...)

Xilorator Even worse, people will refuse to follow The Law because they believe The Law is their enemy. (Idiots).

thank you, wrath, for having so far the only on-topic response. (edit: xilorator posted while i was typing)
i like where you're headed with this idea, but saying "better education system" is fairly vague. essentially... better how? what do you see as current flaws and what do you think needs to be changed or added into the system to improve it?

your argument kind of suggests there needs to be some kind of "morality class" or "etiquette a.k.a. how not to be a dick in society's ass", but i don't see that going over well.

It's not going to, but I hear the schools are suffering, horribly, the quality is dropping considerably. Everyone in my class, all the way up to High School and forward to College, has yet to be engaged in something stupid like guns. (Sure some have died by a gun, but it was on accident, Shotgun was not primed correctly and blew a friend's cheek off, the other died due to friendly fire in a training session)

Yet, we 'played' with guns of all types, pretend, paintball, blank, and eventually, less lethal rounds. (Providing we had enough pillows to soften up the bean bags)

Was there ever a question about control, or how dangerous they are? NO! Why? Because we were taught 'right', destruction of violence, destruction of gangs, etc centra...and even though we ended up getting guns, we were told not to use them against each other. When we fight, which was rare, we put up fists, like men (This includes women too, the girls would punch and kick and grab, never use a firearm, or even a stick for that matter.)

Yet today, I see a lack of feels for the development of kids. Bullying is at an all time high, and has led to tragedies with kids getting shot. In my class, our local Garland PD, cracked down on bullying, like aids in a Sec 4 Containment Field. We all got along, had our groups, but were 'friendly', never demanding crap from each other.

Skip ahead a few years, and it turns into a frenzy of people fearing for their lives, people making poor decisions because they don't know better...and it starts at the CORE, which is education and well-being. (Family life as well, a kid with abusive parents isn't going to get far, and will become another victim of violence, gun or no gun.)

It's hard to place my thoughts and points because I lack the brains to do so, but I know without a reasonable doubt, that guns are not the answer. There is no perfect solution, like education, and there will be bad apples who go against it, at all odds...and we need to be ready for those. I've taken a life before using a gun, (forced to do so) and tased a few people before, but only because my life, or the life of others was in danger. (And I'm no boy in blue either)

It's a matter of knowledge, and knowledge of violence. Controlling, will give not only a bad rep, but put many in harm's way of the real criminals, who will do whatever it takes to get what they want.

(Also, I thought this was Serious Fucking business, I read the rules, strange how everyone else missed that. o.O?)

 

[Xilorator]

Ok, fair enough. But let me respond to your points for a second here

1 - this is one i can kind of go with. i mean, i don't see the government coming after the citizens with full force because the country would physically lie in ruins afterwards, to the point where the country could collapse economically, and then the government loses more than it gains. but a well armed population could be substantially sufficient force to physically overthrow the government's areas of operation. however, i think that's slightly irrelevant as the government has essentially already enslaved the population through financial means.

2 - this might be true. people would still commit crimes, just with different weapons (ie. knives). but, would you rather have someone come at you with a knife or with a gun? personally i much prefer the knife. you have a better chance at defending yourself and knife wounds are, for the most part, less likely to kill you. i mean a stab to the head is equal to a shot to the head, but i think you'd find a higher rate of survival from knife attack victims.

3 - this argument is terrible. this is equivalent to saying "crack addicts are going to sell and smoke crack even though it's illegal, so we might as well not make any laws about it". it's logically fallacious. of course criminals don't follow laws, that is what makes them criminals by definition, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws in the first place. here's the conundrum: without laws, there are no criminals because there's no laws to break. as soon as we make any laws, we will have criminals because it's pretty much guaranteed that not everyone will follow them all the time. but without them we have anarchy, which is i think is generally frowned upon, not to mention impossible within a society.

So my point with number one is for example, look at the U.S. invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan and the subsequent years thereafter (most recently Syria). It takes a massive amount of force to take over a country and one cannot simply do it by air. Which means to militarily take over a country it is going to be a land battle. Therefore, since the U.S. has 300 million guns, I highly doubt this scenario would come to fruition because of how unlikely and how improbable it is. It is more likely that our government will try to corrupt the system into their favor while we are none the wiser. Cheaper and easier.

My point with number two was not simply that crime would not occur, but rather more crime would occur with other weapons overall compared to if guns were not made illegal.

As for the third one, I am not saying we shouldn't have the law. I'm simply saying that even though the law is in place, a person is going to commit it regardless of what is written in the law books.

 

[TurboTaco]

If you are a Canadian saying the USA needs stronger gun control: Fuck off

Steve Shotgun Jesus

plz ban poster from thread for being disrespektful!

 

[excalibur]

I'm about sick and freaking tired of this gun control bull crap. OUR OWN RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT GUN VIOLENCE IS HIGHER IN HIGHER GUN CONTROLLED AREAS.....

this is right from one of the most liberal worldwide sites http://news.yahoo.com/firearms-statistics-gun-control-advocates-don-t-want-194040384.html .


I don't see how people can't get it through their heads that it helps NO ONE to take guns from law-biding citizens and leave the only armed people being government agencies and CRIMINALS. Bombs are illegal, drugs are illegal, rape is illegal yet criminals still commit these crimes.

in 2011
323 people killed with a rifle
356 people killed with a shotgun
496 people killed with club or hammer
1694 people killed with knives or cutting instrument

2006
618 murders by club or hammer
438 murders by rifle

2005
445 murders by rifle
605 murders by hammer or club.


the FBI estimates that 72.5% of ALL MURDERS ARE GANG RELATED............ maybe its time to ban gang activities....



ITS NOT THE GUNS ITS THE CRIMINALS. get that through your head

 

[excalibur]

Our own POS President would rather arm the cartels (fast and furious operations) than see law-biding citizens have guns. I'm about ready to flip shit I get so fucking worked up on this subject its not funny. I wanna see that mother fucker that tries to take my guns, if I have not committed a crime and you come to my house I will defend my home, family, and my property to my FULLEST abilities.

 

[excalibur]

"Of the almost 31,000 firearm deaths in the United States during 2005, 55 percent were suicides, according to stats from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

There were 8,583 gun related murders in 2011. So, about 4,720 were suicides. Note that that is roughly half the overall homicides in the US according to the CDC.

The 14 cities with the most gang violence are responsible for 3,410 homicides (Atlanta, Louisville, Cleveland, Chicago, New York, Memphis, Detroit, Philly, New Orleans, Oakland, Los Angeles, St Louis, Birmingham, Baltimore).

72.5% of all Murders are gang related according to fbi estimates. Meaning 857 gun murders were not suicide or gang related. There were not stats on accidental murders (hunting or mishandling)


Suddenly your gun control argument lost its backing. Curious fact tho, since the semi-automatic rifle ban ended gun related murders have dropped from 31,000 to 8,500. Care to explain that on for us?

 

[14bux]

Makes bad news for me, my family has the largest recorded gun count in PA. If it gets more backing, we can't get rid of them.

Anyhow, the part we need to fix is being able to make the crazy people such as in Connecticut and Boston uncrazy by providing more asylums and mental hospitals. Gangs won't change, they'll find a way around no matter what.

 

[Xilorator]

Hah, my uncles got 38 guns between him and his wife. If he ever gets in trouble, the news will be saying "mad man with 38 guns arrested" and blah blah blah.