ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
The price suggestion was denied for perfectly valid reasons - the large majority of "evidence" posted were offers to buy, which tend to be underpriced. That, and the value of an item should not be determined by the opinions and desires of the masses; making an argument to alter a price based on the premise that the majority agrees is the fallacy of appealing to the masses (which was the underlying problem behind backpack.tf's system).

That said, this is solid evidence that backpack.tf's supposed system of prices being decided "by the people" is absolute bullshit - ultimately it's run exactly the same way as the original Spreadsheet, albeit with a larger administrative base; ultimately prices are determined by the individuals that administrate the site, not by the gaming community at large. And while that is in fact a more solid and accurate system than one decided by the masses, the masses disagree, and thus take backpack.tf's prices too seriously. Using the rising price of keys as an example, sellers refuse to sell for any lower than the high end of the range on backpack.tf, forcing buyers to purchase at that price, which raises the range, et cetera.

The problem isn't with backpack.tf - it's with the people that assume backpack.tf's pricing as law.
 

Fiend

Senior TF2 Admin
It's a never ending cycle. The bp.tf system is being exploited by certain individuals who have a strangle hold on a majority of the keys and a majority of the sales on Outpost in general. Unfortunately, everyone uses bp.tf so it does become law even though people disagree. Saying that the key price being denied for valid reasons is false in my eyes. His initial proof in the suggestion may not have been as substantial as it needed to be, but anyone that does a little research can see that the prices are being rigged and raised by certain individuals. There will never be enough "proof" that bp.tf requires to substantiate an approved vote for key prices to come down.

I applaud him for at least attempting to lower the price. It was doomed to fail from the start and i have personally had it out for well over an hour with an admin from bp.tf about how untrustworthy and biased the site and admins are. Ultimately, that admin ADMITTED to me that their system is flawed and that their security if flawed because the allow a certain individual with a CAUTION FLAGGED steamrep to continue to make price suggestions that consistently get approved.
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
Ultimately, that admin ADMITTED to me that their system is flawed and that their security if flawed because the allow a certain individual with a CAUTION FLAGGED steamrep to continue to make price suggestions that consistently get approved.

How is this a flaw? If, theoretically, prices are determined by the masses, then a price suggestion, made by a player who is flagged on SteamRep, that is approved would have had as good a chance of getting approved as if the player wasn't flagged. Also, can you explain how the supposed "flaw" suggested in that players who are caution-flagged on SteamRep can post price suggestions has any relevance to the issue of this particular price suggestion? Otherwise this is simply of false cause.

any idiot with a brain can see that the prices are being rigged and raised by certain individuals.

Can you provide evidence of this?

I applaud him for at least attempting to lower the price. It was doomed to fail from the start and i have personally had it out for well over an hour with an admin from bp.tf about how untrustworthy and biased the site and admins are.

You cannot affirm the consequent; just because the pricing seems fixed and controlled, it does not mean the admins are corrupt. How can you be certain that the decisions and judgement made by the admins are done with malicious intent? Just like how the opinion of one mad player should not determine the price of an item, the opinion of one unidentified admin should not determine the intention, attitude, and fair judgement in the entirety of the backpack.tf admins.
 

Fiend

Senior TF2 Admin
You don't see it a flaw that someone with a SteamRep caution flag for scamming is able to manipulate market prices? Especially on keys, when that person has an influx for 1000 keys right before he suggests the vote? I sure do and i can't imagine many others not seeing that as a flaw.

I would provide the evidence you requested if i thought it would make a difference. I know it won't and i am not interested in investing the amount of time it would take to prove such a thing when no positive outcome will come of it. I'm not the first person to say this.

I am not saying that EVERY admin on bp.tf is corrupt. That word was never used. However, to get a confession from an admin that he knows that things aren't right, aren't being approved properly, and that there are flaws in security and procedure speaks volumes.
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
You don't see it a flaw that someone with a SteamRep caution flag for scamming is able to manipulate market prices? Especially on keys, when that price has an influx for 1000 keys right before he suggests the vote? I sure do and i can't imagine many others not seeing that as a flaw.

My point is that a player with a caution tag has as little significance in the ability to alter market prices as everyone else: his/her single vote is as "powerful" as any other players, upon which there can be well over a thousand on a single price suggestion; as we have already established, the vote of a player is relatively worthless seeing as the deciding factors to a price change is based upon the admin overseeing it; the players voting and the admins deciding upon a price suggestion made by a player with a caution flag are impartial compared to that made by a player without such a flag, thus the outcome of the price suggestion is no different than if that player was not flagged.

I would provide the evidence you requested if i thought it would make a difference. I know it won't and i am not interested in investing the amount of time it would take to prove such a thing when no positive outcome will come of it. I'm not the first person to say this.

The prices being influenced and decided upon by "certain individuals" is exactly the same function as how the original Spreadsheet worked. Accusing them of being "rigged and raised" is completely different. Rigging suggests fraudulent activity with the intent of personal gain. I wholeheartedly agree that the priced on backpack.tf are heavily influenced, if not based solely on the opinion and deciding factors of certain individuals. And there hasn't been any conclusive evidence, at least none that I have seen, that proves this to be true of the backpack.tf admins, else we would be in a similar situation as that of the original Spreadsheet, in which the same accusation was made with highly suggestive yet not conclusive evidence and the corresponding gaming community threw up in uproar.

I am not saying that EVERY admin on bp.tf is corrupt. That word was never used. However, to get a confession from an admin that he knows that things aren't right, aren't being approved properly, and that there are flaws in security and procedure speaks volumes.

I think that such a "confession" holds no volume without any meaning to back it. It certainly does hold significance, but his/her intentions and reasoning behind such a theory might be just as improper as the admins whom he is accusing. Of course, I'm sure confidentiality may be an issue with such an argument, it being understandable why he/she would wish to remain anonymous. But if you believe that the system is flawed, that some admins are not approving the suggestions properly (both of which I agree), and that the denial of this recent price suggestion is one of these improperly judges suggestions, then I'm deducing that you believe that the judgement made by the admin for this particular suggestion, Sir J-j-jon [Warrior of Redwall], is improper. And I'm asking you to explain why.


Of course, I'd like to make it clear that these premises I'm presenting are solely to judge the meaning behind the price suggestion in question. In no way do I intend to be irritable, argumentive, or hostile; my apologies if I appear that way. In questioning your argument I'm also questioning mine in trying to establish a conclusion here. This is just my method of evaluating the two.
 

Fiend

Senior TF2 Admin
I think that such a "confession" holds no volume without any meaning to back it. It certainly does hold significance, but his/her intentions and reasoning behind such a theory might be just as improper as the admins whom he is accusing. Of course, I'm sure confidentiality may be an issue with such an argument, it being understandable why he/she would wish to remain anonymous. But if you believe that the system is flawed, that some admins are not approving the suggestions properly (both of which I agree), and that the denial of this recent price suggestion is one of these improperly judges suggestions, then I'm deducing that you believe that the judgement made by the admin for this particular suggestion, Sir J-j-jon [Warrior of Redwall], is improper. And I'm asking you to explain why.

The simplest and shortest way i will explain it is by saying that the only proof that backpack.tf really accepts is Outpost sales and TF2 finance. TF2 finance is just an average. A number. Raw data which can easily be manipulated and IS manipulated on Outpost. The individuals i keep anonymous can EASILY manipulate outpost sales with alt accounts and friend accounts by showing that they sold keys at a certain price multiple times and, thus, the bp.tf prices need to be increased.

This has been proven to occur MULTIPLE times on bp.tf when people try and disprove proof that was provided. Everytime, bp.tf dismisses the counter-proof without comment.
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
The simplest and shortest way i will explain it is by saying that the only proof that backpack.tf really accepts is Outpost sales and TF2 finance. TF2 finance is just an average. A number. Raw data which can easily be manipulated and IS manipulated on Outpost. The individuals i keep anonymous can EASILY manipulate outpost sales with alt accounts and friend accounts by showing that they sold keys at a certain price multiple times and, thus, the bp.tf prices need to be increased.

This has been proven to occur MULTIPLE times on bp.tf when people try and disprove proof that was provided. Everytime, bp.tf dismisses the counter-proof without comment.


I'll agree that the fact that backpack.tf only accepts Outpost and TF2 Finance as proof for price suggestions is flawed. Because so little "evidence" is needed for a price suggestion, I would argue that anyone, and not just the "individuals" you "keep anonymous" has the ability to easily manipulate Outpost sales and thus the evidence for a price suggestion on backpack.tf. One example is as I described earlier,


sellers refuse to sell for any lower than the high end of the range on backpack.tf, forcing buyers to purchase at that price, which raises the range, et cetera.


The reasoning provided by the deciding admin for this particular instance, which was not left "without comment" is as follows:

Sir J-j-jon [Warrior of Redwall said:
Current range is fine as is supported by tf2finance (4.08 atm)

All the trades you listed were buying trades which 90 percent of the time are underpriced.

http://scrap.tf/keys you have scrap.tf which is sold out @ 4.33 refined.

Besides we are already not including people who have sold some at 4.33/4,66/5+

I think the first two reasons he/she provided are in fact valid reasons, considering how Outpost and Finance function. But I think the method of which these prices are being judged and decided are not in line with how the actual TF2 economy functions, which has been evident in the slow decay of agreement and reliability among backpack.tf and the trading community as a whole. But if that's the case, how will it turn out?
 

Fiend

Senior TF2 Admin
To be honest, the only way i see the trend of rising key prices and falling metal value is if Valve actually does something to manipulate their value intentionally. Otherwise, there's no way to disprove the Outpost sales, honest or not, and ultimately the prices will continue to climb and climb.

I doubt Valve is inclined to do something that drastic.
 

Gatherix

Death by Darkly
To be honest, the only way i see the trend of rising key prices and falling metal value is if Valve actually does something to manipulate their value intentionally. Otherwise, there's no way to disprove the Outpost sales, honest or not, and ultimately the prices will continue to climb and climb.

I doubt Valve is inclined to do something that drastic.

Valve has been making more money by implementing the recent changes that have caused the change in market. But backpack.tf is becoming more and more unstable.
 

14bux

Senior TF2 Admin
It all started with those TF2 account farms. More people farmed, causing more metal being produced, resulting in inflation of metal.
 
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